Jerry Owens

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:13 pm

Originally posted by poopy tooth:

I think 1 player qualifies at DH, once he's lifted, you lose the DH and the pitcher must hit. I could be wring, but that's what it sounded like.I assume you mean the "pinch hitter must hit" and not "the pitcher." In any event, I believe you are correct -- once the DH leaves the game, there is no DH until that spot in the order comes up again. Only if the pinch runner stays in to hit (assuming he has that opportunity) would he become the new DH. If the pinch runner leaves the game and the DH spot comes to bat again, the player batting in that spot becomes the new DH.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:08 am

Originally posted by King of Queens:

quote:Originally posted by poopy tooth:

I think 1 player qualifies at DH, once he's lifted, you lose the DH and the pitcher must hit. I could be wring, but that's what it sounded like.I assume you mean the "pinch hitter must hit" and not "the pitcher." In any event, I believe you are correct -- once the DH leaves the game, there is no DH until that spot in the order comes up again. Only if the pinch runner stays in to hit (assuming he has that opportunity) would he become the new DH. If the pinch runner leaves the game and the DH spot comes to bat again, the player batting in that spot becomes the new DH. [/QUOTE]In Owens' case last year, in my opinion it's bizarre that he would play in only 12 games last year and have games played listed as: DH 6, PR 7, CF 4, PH 2 and RF 1. Obviously, the PR and maybe even PH also counted as DH, which to me makes no sense at all. But not only did STATS list his eligibility this way, so did Baseball Info Solutions, which produces the Bill James Handbook. I don't know how Elias scores this, but to me it seems wrong. If he was a pinch-hitter, then he wasn't a DH. This is an official scoring question -- again, in my opinion -- not an NFBC eligibility question as he definitely would have had OF eligibility if STATS had him listed playing there the most last year in the majors.

JohnZ · Post by **JohnZ** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:49 am

Pretty sure if you PH for a DH, you become the DH officially when your team takes the field the next inning.

Just as if someone PH for a RF, and then went out to play RF the next inning.

So.. "If" Ownes PR for Thome all those games, then it makes sense that he was officially assigned to be DH.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:20 am

I just left a message with the folks at 245 Park Avenue -- hope to have an official answer about this later today.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:24 am

This is a case where numbers lie. Owens is an outfielder but hardly got the chance to play defensively, as was the case for Prince Fielder in 2005.

Cases where Greg should override STATS numbers with his common sense approach.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:38 am

Update: MLB has not called back yet, but I just spoke to a very helpful gentleman at the Elias Sports Bureau.

According to Elias, Jerry Owens was properly credited with 6 games at DH last year. Even though he never took the field, Owens officially became the DH once the next half inning of the games he played occurred. If the half inning in which he pinch ran had marked the end of the game, then Owens would only have been credited with a pinch running (and not a position).

I'm officially waving the white flag on this one...

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:43 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

This is a case where numbers lie. Owens is an outfielder but hardly got the chance to play defensively, as was the case for Prince Fielder in 2005.

Cases where Greg should override STATS numbers with his common sense approach. I didn't have common sense when I just looked at the numbers. I honestly assumed he did DH in six games and thus his designation was correct. This investigative work by everyone in the NFBC has enlightened me about something new in baseball. I guess you learn something new every day.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 5:45 am

Originally posted by King of Queens:

Update: MLB has not called back yet, but I just spoke to a very helpful gentleman at the Elias Sports Bureau.

According to Elias, Jerry Owens was properly credited with 6 games at DH last year. Even though he never took the field, Owens officially became the DH once the next half inning of the games he played occurred. If the half inning in which he pinch ran had marked the end of the game, then Owens would only have been credited with a pinch running (and not a position).

I'm officially waving the white flag on this one... Wow, this is wild. Okay, if all three services score it this way, then I too will raise the white flag. DH it is. But that's wild, indeed. Good investigative work, KOQ.

poopy tooth · Post by **poopy tooth** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:00 am

Thanks, Buster...couldn't remember the ruling on DH's.

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:10 am

It doesn't really matter anymore, but even under Elias' explanation, I still believe that Owens was incorrectly made a UT.

According to Elias, Jerry Owens was properly credited with 6 games at DH last year. Even though he never took the field, Owens officially became the DH once the next half inning of the games he played occurred. If the half inning in which he pinch ran had marked the end of the game, then Owens would only have been credited with a pinch running (and not a position). Emphasis added.

If Elias/KoQ is correct, the Owens only played five games at DH.

Here is the breakdown from 2006:

9/11 Pinch ran for designated hitter Jim Thome in the top of the 9th inning. 1st game DH

9/12 Pinch ran for first basemen Paul Konerko, and did not stay in the game. (PR)

9/13 Pinch ran for designated hitter Jim Thome in the top of the 9th inning. 2nd game DH

9/19 Pinch ran for designated hitter Jim Thome in the bottom of the 7th, then played centerfield in the top of the 9th. (DH and OF)

3rd game DH -and-

1st game OF

9/20 Pinch ran for designated hitter Jim Thome in the bottom of the 9th. (PR) The White Sox lost 6-2 in regulation, so the Sox didn't take the field after Owens' pinch running performance.

9/21 Pinch hit for centerfielder Anderson in the bottom of the 8th, played centerfield.

2nd game OF

9/23 Pinch ran for designated hitter Jim Thome in the bottom of the 8th.

4th game DH

9/24 Pinch ran for designated hitter Jim Thome in the bottom of the 8th.

5th game DH

9/25 Played rightfield

3rd game OF

9/26 Pinch hit for second baseman Tad Iguchi in the top of the 9th inning. (PH)

9/27 Started in centerfield

4th game OF

9/29 Started in centerfield

5th game OF

I've got Owens at 5 games OF and 5 games DH, meaning that using Elias' analysis, Owens would have been available at OF.

UFS, sorry about your ADD, but they have drugs for that now.

CC's Desperados · Post by **CC's Desperados** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:11 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by King of Queens:

Update: MLB has not called back yet, but I just spoke to a very helpful gentleman at the Elias Sports Bureau.

According to Elias, Jerry Owens was properly credited with 6 games at DH last year. Even though he never took the field, Owens officially became the DH once the next half inning of the games he played occurred. If the half inning in which he pinch ran had marked the end of the game, then Owens would only have been credited with a pinch running (and not a position).

I'm officially waving the white flag on this one... Wow, this is wild. Okay, if all three services score it this way, then I too will raise the white flag. DH it is. But that's wild, indeed. Good investigative work, KOQ. [/QUOTE]Does Stats get credit for doing something right here?

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:29 am

Buster, STATS and Elias have him DHing in six games, while the Bill James Handbook (Baseball Info Solutions) has him DHing in five games. The STATS log has the Sept. 20th game as him DHing, which you have him just as a pinch-runner. I'm not sure if they logged that incorrectly or if you're reading it incorrectly, but that's the game discrepency that we're looking at as I have their game-by-game log.

Not sure if that helps or hurts, but that's the game that has him DHing more than playing outfield, as crazy as this has all become.

Buster · Post by **Buster** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:39 am

If the Elias interpretation of the fielding designation (not a DH if the team doesn't take the field) is correct, then Bill James got it right, and STATS got it wrong.

Here is the play by play of the last inning of the September 20, 2006 game between the White Sox and Tigers.

Tigers 9th

Neal Cotts pitching:

Curtis Granderson: Ball, Granderson grounded bunt out to first.

Ivan Rodriguez: Ball, Rodriguez homered to center

Chris Shelton hit for Sean Casey.

Chris Shelton: Ball, Strike swinging, Strike looking, Ball, Ball, Foul, Shelton struck out swinging.

Magglio Ordonez: Ball, Strike looking, Foul, Foul, Ordonez struck out swinging.

End of Inning (1 Run, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

-----------------

White Sox 9th

Brent Clevlen in right

Todd Jones pitching:

Jim Thome: Strike looking, Thome singled to center.

Paul Konerko: Jerry Owens ran for Jim Thome, Ball, Strike looking, Konerko grounded out to third, Owens to second.

A.J. Pierzynski: Ball, Ball, Ball, Strike looking, Pierzynski walked.

Joe Crede: Strike looking, Crede grounded into double play shortstop to second to first, Pierzynski out at second.

End of Inning (0 Runs, 1 Hit, 0 Errors)

FINAL SCORE TIGERS 6 WHITE SOX 2

Of course, if the Elias interpretation is inaccurate, then it would be 6 DH and 5 OF.

Buster

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:41 pm

If this is correct, then STATS does have it right. From the Major League Baseball rulebook:

6.10

Any League may elect to use the Designated Hitter Rule.

(a) In the event of inter-league competition between clubs of Leagues using the Designated Hitter Rule and clubs of Leagues not using the Designated Hitter Rule, the rule will be used as follows:

1. In World Series or exhibition games, the rule will be used or not used as is the practice of the home team.

2. In All-Star games, the rule will only be used if both teams and both Leagues so agree.

(b) The Rule provides as follows:

A hitter may be designated to bat for the starting pitcher and all subsequent pitchers in any game without otherwise affecting the status of the pitcher(s) in the game. A Designated Hitter for the pitcher must be selected prior to the game and must be included in the lineup cards presented to the Umpire in Chief.

The designated hitter named in the starting lineup must come to bat at least one time, unless the opposing club changes pitchers.

It is not mandatory that a club designate a hitter for the pitcher, but failure to do so prior to the game precludes the use of a Designated Hitter for that game.

Pinch hitters for a Designated Hitter may be used. Any substitute hitter for a Designated Hitter becomes the Designated Hitter. A replaced Designated Hitter shall not re-enter the game in any capacity.

The Designated Hitter may be used defensively, continuing to bat in the same position in the batting order, but the pitcher must then bat in the place of the substituted defensive player, unless more than one substitution is made, and the manager then must designate their spots in the batting order.

A runner may be substituted for the Designated Hitter and the runner assumes the role of Designated Hitter. A Designated Hitter may not pinch run.

A Designated Hitter is “locked” into the batting order. No multiple substitutions may be made that will alter the batting rotation of the Designated Hitter.

Once the game pitcher is switched from the mound to a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Once a pinch hitter bats for any player in the batting order and then enters the game to pitch, this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game.

Once the game pitcher bats for the Designated Hitter this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. (The game pitcher may only pinch-hit for the Designated Hitter.)

Once a Designated Hitter assumes a defensive position this move shall terminate the Designated Hitter role for the remainder of the game. A substitute for the Designated Hitter need not be announced until it is the Designated Hitter’s turn to bat.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:48 pm

Also found this on baseball-reference.com in support of Owens getting 6 games at DH:

The DH Rule

There are a few peculiarities to the DH Rule (rule 6.10 of the Major League Baseball Rules):

The DH is optional. A team may decide to bat its pitcher and not use a designated hitter in a game where it would normally be used. There are no cases of Major League teams declining the use of a DH in a game.

The DH can play in the field, but once a manager decides to play him on defense, the pitcher immediately takes over the batting spot of the defensive player which the DH replaced (unless there are multiple substitutions, in which case the manager can decide where the pitcher will bat). The team then forfeits the use of the DH for the rest of the game. This happens a few times every season, and sometimes results in a pitcher being forced to bat in an AL game.

The DH spot is locked in the order. If the DH bats, for example, fifth in the order, no substitution can be made to move him to fourth or sixth, or anywhere else.

Any substitute for the DH, including pinch hitters and pinch runners are automatically considered to be the new DH, and the restrictions outlined above apply to them as well. These substitutes are listed in the boxscore as "Smith ph-dh" or "Smith pr-dh". This is how a number of AL pitchers end up with games as DH in their statistics: these are almost always the result of being used as a pinch-runner for the DH.

As an aside, I also discovered an interesting tidbit about "The Phantom DH." The DH listed in the starting line-up must bat at least once before being substituted, unless there is an injury or the opposite team's starting pitcher has been changed. This rule was added after the 1980 season to close a loophole discovered by Baltimore Orioles manager Earl Weaver: he would list one of his inactive starting pitchers in the starting line-up as a phantom DH, and then, when his first time to bat came up, Weaver could decide which of a number of players to use as a pinch hitter for his DH, depending on the situation (for example if there were men on base, if he needed a base-runner, etc). Pitchers Steve Stone and Dennis Martinez were used most often in this capacity. Boxscores from that time would list the pitchers as having played a game at DH, but after the amendment to the rule was adopted, these "appearances" were erased from these pitchers' records.

This has been a great education in the DH Rule. Time to re-read the MLB rulebook...

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:49 pm

I am now convinced that one day the NFBC will have a "Jerry Owens rule" AND a "Jack Cust rule." We MUST name some type of eligibility rule on these two fine MLB players!!

Good work KOQ. At $75 per hour, this investigative work will be costly to the NFBC, but it's money well spent. Fill out your report and drop it by the Iola office tonight. Your work is now done.

King of Queens · Post by **King of Queens** » Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:55 pm

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

I am now convinced that one day the NFBC will have a "Jerry Owens rule" AND a "Jack Cust rule." We MUST name some type of eligibility rule on these two fine MLB players!!

Good work KOQ. At $75 per hour, this investigative work will be costly to the NFBC, but it's money well spent. Fill out your report and drop it by the Iola office tonight. Your work is now done.

As we discussed, Greg, it is absolutely amazing that we've had issues with two separate players, less than three weeks apart, in the fourth year of this contest.

At $75/hour, you're getting off cheap. Please ensure that Tom hands over a fist full of drink tickets on September 1st

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:48 am

Originally posted by King of Queens:

[QUOTE]At $75/hour, you're getting off cheap. Please ensure that Tom hands over a fist full of drink tickets on September 1st

You have to remember that our wages here in Iola, Wisconsin are a bit different than they are for you New Yorkers. Here, you can buy almost an acre of land for $75!! So in Iola dollars, we paid hansomely for your services. In Big Apple dollars, we got off cheap!!

Either way, I promise Tom will have a handful of drink tickets for you at the NFFC draft!!

Quahogs · Post by **Quahogs** » Thu Jun 07, 2007 3:33 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

quote:Originally posted by King of Queens:

[QUOTE]At $75/hour, you're getting off cheap. Please ensure that Tom hands over a fist full of drink tickets on September 1st

You have to remember that our wages here in Iola, Wisconsin are a bit different than they are for you New Yorkers. Here, you can buy almost an acre of land for $75!! So in Iola dollars, we paid hansomely for your services. In Big Apple dollars, we got off cheap!!

Either way, I promise Tom will have a handful of drink tickets for you at the NFFC draft!!

[/QUOTE]the key here is unCLENCHING that hand to set those tickets free - what's your method King ? crowbar, grease gun, or Jessica Alba mask ?

p.s. Tom's actually pretty generous - have no worries NY NFFC drafters !

Q

Kevin D · Post by **Kevin D** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:25 am

Jerry Owens Is a FLIPPIN' OUTFIELDER!

[ June 10, 2007, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Kevin D ]