Changing Roster for Hunter

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:53 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Lance, We'll save this debate for the off season. I sure wish we could sit down over a beer and diet pepsi and pry into each others minds about this though.

Come on out to California!!!

The Diet Pepsi's are on me!

[/QUOTE]I'd love to. You live in my old neck of the woods. When my family left Hayward, the population was around 40,000. I shudder to think what it is now.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:05 am

Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

quote:Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

quote:Originally posted by DOUGHBOYS:

Lance, We'll save this debate for the off season. I sure wish we could sit down over a beer and diet pepsi and pry into each others minds about this though.

Come on out to California!!!

The Diet Pepsi's are on me!

[/QUOTE]I'd love to. You live in my old neck of the woods. When my family left Hayward, the population was around 40,000. I shudder to think what it is now.

[/QUOTE]Right across the San Mateo bridge! One side San Mateo, the other side Hayward.

Oh...and Hayward hasn't grown much since you left :rolleyes: ...only more than tripled!!! (estimates between population of 140,000-155,312...and the cities just blend together like one giant megalopolis.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:17 am

Originally posted by Fudd:

in retrospect, probably one of the dumbest rules I've seen in fantasy sports. Hah, this is funny. The DL rule makes a lot of sense. When the Mets put Jose Reyes on the DL on a Tuesday after saying he was still day-to-day, NFBC owners were able to replace him for the weekend games. That was the intention of the rule.

Unfortunatey, with all good intentions come variations to which anyone affected becomes the loudest voice. And that's fine because through intelligent dialogue comes an even better solution. That's what I hope happens here rather than just name calling or going back to the old ways, which I agree is outdated.

So here's where we've progressed: During the first year of the rule we waited until the start of Friday's first game to allow MLB teams to officially state players were on the DL and the entire onus fell on STATS and our NFBC owners to sit around all day Friday waiting for the red DL flag. It was the wrong way to do it and unfair to STATS and to our NFBC owners. So we corrected that by setting the midnight Thursday deadline to allow NFBC owners to have a life on Fridays.

So now we're here today with the current rules and if a guy gets hurt on Wednesday night there's no way he's going to land on the DL in 24 hours. It just doesn't happen. Or in the case this week, if the Angels wait until Friday afternoon to state that Torii Hunter and Vladimir Guerrero are going on the DL despite playing as late as Tuesday, it hurts NFBC owners too.

So what do we do? Three options:

1. Go back to no DL rule, period.

2. Keep the DL rule as is for 2010 and take some of these tough breaks like we saw this week.

3. Allow Friday substitutions just for hitters; not pitchers.

As I've stated before, I've asked STATS about doing No. 3 and we can likely program that for 2010, but it will take some time to do this. It prevents streaming of pitchers and keeps our DL rule intact for pitchers. It does put a little more work into it for NFBC owners as they now can move in and out any hitters each Friday, but honestly with only seven reserves that shouldn't be all that difficult.

I'm not one to move back in time and do No. 1 again. I think we've progressed technologically to allow either No. 2 or No. 3.

We can discuss the merits of all three during the next three months and then I'll form a plan for 2010. That's the best solution and it keeps us as a leader in the industry that just doesn't look for easy solutions. This IS the best game in the industry and we will continue to improve our rules to keep it that way.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:21 am

Originally posted by Sack:

Friday D/L Rule raises its ugly head once again. Can't shout enough, because I've been shouting since Day #1.

Idea behind the rule was on the mark, but unless you open up moves on Friday, the timestamp nonsense just isn't fair.

So I take part in three Vegas drafts. Invest $2,500, $1,300, $1,300 in each. Have to watch this weekend while taking a blank from Tori Hunter on each team because he wasn't placed on the D/L by Thursday night. Meanwhile, not only to I get the blank, but guys within my leagues are allowed to replace a dead spot provided they have an available sub on the bench and a guy listed prior to Friday. This weekend was once again a shining example. Hunter, Vlad, and Soto - all DOWN before a freaking pitch was thrown today.

I hope those of us playing this game and investing sums of money shout long and hard when we are asked for our 2 cents on rule changes. Everytime this crap kicks me it gets harder to take.

Good luck this weekend guys. Sorry for the rant. Kenny, I hope you know I appreciate your input and even know that through your rants are good points. But one thing I would like to see in rants that point out the obvious about how rules affect their teams, I'd like to see recommended solutions. In other words, if you hate the DL rule as is, then provide a better mouse trap. Go out on a limb and say you hate the Friday DL rule as is but would be all for a DL rule that only affected pitchers and everyone else remained in your starting lineup. Or a DL rule that pertained to just pitchers and hitters could be moved in and out each Friday at will. Or no DL rule at all.

Rants are cool, but providing twists to those rules that make them better makes this a more useful thread. I'm looking for consensus opinions and already realize that those owners with Hunter, Vlad and Soto are mad at 1) Me 2) MLB and 3) the Angels and Cubs.

Thanks for the rant; now I'm looking for your solution.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:23 am

It seems all #3 would do is EVERYTHING we hate now...AND those without injuries would benefit over those WITH injuries.

Not sure I see the light.

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:29 am

Lance, those without injuries will ALWAYS have a bigger benefit than those with.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:29 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

It seems all #3 would do is EVERYTHING we hate now...AND those without injuries would benefit over those WITH injuries.

Not sure I see the light. Well, since every MLB team plays three games each weekend I'm not sure why anyone with a healthy player would benefit more than someone replacing an unhealthy player. And remember, with only seven reserves you really won't have that many options to replace hitters with a reserve that qualifies at that position. You likely have only 3 or 4 position players on your reserve at a time.

At the very least, you'd have a better chance than you do now of replacing anyone on the DL by the weekend and even anyone who is day-to-day by the weekend. And it would put even more emphasis on teams carrying very strong reserve rosters rather than stashing prospects who may get called up in August.

Just a thought, but appreciate the input Lance.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:40 am

I just see #3 opening up more game theory for lefty righty matchups for the hitters who tend to be benched otherwise during maybe 2 of the 3 weekend games rather than having to weigh that information on Sunday night.

Being that predicting the SP beyond 4 or 5 days out is not an exact science...this rule would make Sunday's decision making less important re: hitters, as they need only look at MON-THU SP's, and can adjust later.

I understand there was money spent in programming Stats for the DL rule...but that should not be the main reason to keep it forever.

The game theorists are going to tweak this event into their hands, and the recreational players will bow out when they are forced to play a game that requires much more time and effort to compete in.

I guess that's where you all want to take the NFBC.

Being a betting man...I'd bet that with a few more tweaks like these...there will be less entries down the line from players (who really do exist) not willing to play the "new NFBC" that now requires so many more man hours to play. It takes the enjoyment out of a game that has thrived for 30 years being simple.

Your target audience gets smaller with every tweak.

My rant.

[ July 11, 2009, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: sportsbettingman ]

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:03 am

Originally posted by Greg Ambrosius:

So what do we do?

3. Allow Friday substitutions just for hitters; not pitchers.

As I've stated before, I've asked STATS about doing No. 3 and we can likely program that for 2010, but it will take some time to do this. It prevents streaming of pitchers and keeps our DL rule intact for pitchers. It does put a little more work into it for NFBC owners as they now can move in and out any hitters each Friday, but honestly with only seven reserves that shouldn't be all that difficult.

I've come around to agreeing with Mr. Dough and others that this is our best option.

Greg Ambrosius · Post by **Greg Ambrosius** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:07 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

I just see #3 opening up more game theory for lefty righty matchups for the hitters who tend to be benched otherwise during maybe 2 of the 3 weekend games rather than having to weigh that information on Sunday night.

Being that predicting the SP beyond 4 or 5 days out is not an exact science...this rule would make Sunday's decision making less important re: hitters, as they need only look at MON-THU SP's, and can adjust later.

I understand there was money spent in programming Stats for the DL rule...but that should not be the main reason to keep it forever.

The game theorists are going to tweak this event into their hands, and the recreational players will bow out when they are forced to play a game that requires much more time and effort to compete in.

I guess that's where you all want to take the NFBC.

Being a betting man...I'd bet that with a few more tweaks like these...there will be less entries down the line from players (who really do exist) not willing to play the "new NFBC" that now requires so many more man hours to play. It takes the enjoyment out of a game that has thrived for 30 years being simple.

Your target audience gets smaller with every tweak.

My rant.

Now this is a good rant Lance. You don't want the contest to get too niche oriented and lose customers. You are voting for 2 and would gladly take No. 1 because you don't want to see the contest lose customers. It was a rant, an opinion and a vote all in one. Good job.

However, I never said I paid extra for the DL programming or that money has anything to do with making the right decision on our Friday moves. In fact, the new programming won't cost anything either. It's just the time needed to do this and what I was saying is that it would take the off-season to implement any change we make for the future.

But one vote for staying the same from Lance. It's been duly noted.

Glenneration X · Post by **Glenneration X** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:26 am

My vote is absolutely #3....

It is the fairest for all.

sportsbettingman · Post by **sportsbettingman** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:22 am

One more comment...

Do you honestly believe there is some large group of "harder than the NFBC hard core" just waiting to join once the NFBC gets to their minimum level of difficulty?

The more you make the rules uncommon and complex to understand with at least a one or two year learning curve to the untutored new player...I believe they will just stick to their high stakes home game they know and love, rather than be exploited by all the NFBC veterans who have gone through the learning curve of all of the nuances that are there now and being created/added yearly it seems.

#3 is a blatant step toward daily moves. No way to tip-toe around that fact. It turns once a week moves into twice a week. Maybe in 2011 you can break up the MON-THU into Mon and Tues, then Wed and Thu. :rolleyes:

Like 7 days is an eternity to wait to tinker with your roster.

KJ Duke · Post by **KJ Duke** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:26 am

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

Like 7 days is an eternity to wait to tinker with your roster. It is when you've taken zeros from a hitter for the last 2 days and you're looking at three more zeros while there is a productive replacement sitting on your bench.

Also, I don't think you need to be hardcore or an NFBC vet to see you have a hurt player who's putting up zeros who you'd like to bench for the weekend.

[ July 11, 2009, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: KJ Duke ]

DOUGHBOYS · Post by **DOUGHBOYS** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:19 pm

Originally posted by sportsbettingman:

A. One more comment...

B. Do you honestly believe there is some large group of "harder than the NFBC hard core" just waiting to join once the NFBC gets to their minimum level of difficulty?

C. The more you make the rules uncommon and complex to understand with at least a one or two year learning curve to the untutored new player...I believe they will just stick to their high stakes home game they know and love, rather than be exploited by all the NFBC veterans who have gone through the learning curve of all of the nuances that are there now and being created/added yearly it seems.

D. #3 is a blatant step toward daily moves. No way to tip-toe around that fact. It turns once a week moves into twice a week. Maybe in 2011 you can break up the MON-THU into Mon and Tues, then Wed and Thu. :rolleyes:

E. Like 7 days is an eternity to wait to tinker with your roster. A. I don't believe you.

B. It doesen't get much more hard core than us, Lance. I know you're trying to be fac...fasce.....facseti....sarcastic

C. Every player has the attitude. You know the one I'm talking about. The one that says I am the best. If players think they're good enough, rules, one way or the other will not stand in their way.

As for uncommon, it is changing a couple of hitters on Friday. I think more players will find this as refreshing rather than confusing or uncommon.

D. Scare tactic. There will be no daily moves. Greg has already stated that. I have to give the :rolleyes: for that one.

E. It's not an eternity, it's seven days.

Now, our hitters can be replaced after four days. A mole hill that is being made into a mountain.

Lance, you're overstating the change.

Instead of waiting for whether a hitter will be dl'ed or not, we can simply replace any injured, day to day, or slumping player on Friday.

As far as the big picture, I would guess that more new players would like the rule more than not. Of course, I'm biased, I've been Pied Pipering this change for a long time.

On a grander scale, I don't think alot of players will base their decision on this rule change as has been stated. The pocketbook will be the first consideration.

Once they do come, the customer service will win them over.

Sack · Post by **Sack** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 3:00 am

"Kenny, I hope you know I appreciate your input and even know that through your rants are good points. But one thing I would like to see in rants that point out the obvious about how rules affect their teams, I'd like to see recommended solutions. In other words, if you hate the DL rule as is, then provide a better mouse trap. Go out on a limb and say you hate the Friday DL rule as is but would be all for a DL rule that only affected pitchers and everyone else remained in your starting lineup. Or a DL rule that pertained to just pitchers and hitters could be moved in and out each Friday at will. Or no DL rule at all.

Rants are cool, but providing twists to those rules that make them better makes this a more useful thread. I'm looking for consensus opinions and already realize that those owners with Hunter, Vlad and Soto are mad at 1) Me 2) MLB and 3) the Angels and Cubs.

Thanks for the rant; now I'm looking for your solution."

GREG:

Fair. I've expressed solutions in the past, but in the many times I've addressed this topic it is easy to see my solution gets lost.

For the number of leagues I'm willing to play, and for the expense I'm willing to undertake I simpy want more control. The thing that angers me about the current rule is simply that TEAM A can make a Friday change and TEAM B may not as he is restricted to the whims of a MLB medical/front office staf decision. Simply unfair for A to get a change and B not.

My first take was to allow Friday changes across the board as this gave the player total control of his investment in that if he was good enough to manage his bench and run players in/out of his lineup he should be allowed to do so. HOWEVER, over time I've come off of this because I know firsthand how hard this could become for the average player. In addition, I DONT like how some would handle the hoarding of pitchers and it would completely change the way the game is played.

I love the idea of being able to change my OFFENSIVE players on Friday. With fourteen active spots, this is the most likely area in which a player would need to be replaced. No D/L designation is necessary, you should be allowed to control your roster and bench at your own disgression on a Friday afternoon. By Friday, you'll have an idea who may or may not be playing the upcoming weekend and can judge accordingly. It will put more emphasis on the offensive players on the bench and may add to the game from a pitching point of view as some additional arms may be more readily available for free agent pickup - something that ties into FAAB bidding and makes for more strategy. A positive.

Baseball season is a long process. The more effort you place on these teams, the better bang for your buck. I'm ALL for allowing complete FRIDAY changes for offense. With 9 pitching spots, if you happen to get the guy that goes down you are simply locked into your lineup until the following week. But that rule applies across the board - your competition won't be allowed any arm changes just because a specific MLB team waits until after our deadline to list a player on the D/L.

Anyway, my stand is for allowing Friday changes for offensive players - across the board. no injury designation needed. I can live with a pitcher locked in my lineup, even if a mid-week injury sidelines him for that start. I can live with this knowing my leaguemates are locked into the same parameters.

Hope that helps.

[ July 12, 2009, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Sack ]