Joey Votto

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Joey Votto

Post by Bronx Yankees » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:32 am

Dan - I gave you a few hours this morning but I'm still not seeing a Joey Votto thread based on last night's game so I thought I would start one for you. :D Your boy, Joey, had quite the game last night - he was on base five times and did not make a single out. On the other hand, his line reads: 0 for 0, BA .000, Runs 0, Home Runs 0, RBI 1, SB 0, Walks 5. Joey saw 26 pitches without putting one in play. The next batter in the Reds lineup, Ryan Ludwick, went 0 for 5 (0 for 4 with runners in scoring position). Despite 707 plate appearances, Joey now ranks 57th in MLB (per Fangraphs) with 73 RBI. With last night's bases loaded walk, he moved into a tie in RBIs with Jose Bautista (528 plate appearances) and that slugger, Daniel Murphy (672 plate appearances). He's only 1 RBI behind J.J. Hardy and Jed Lowrie (645 and 620 plate appearances, respectively), and 2 RBI behind Matt Dominguez, Pablo Sandoval and Salvador Perez (567, 565 and 508 plate appearances, respectively). (The fact that Salvador Perez has two more RBI than Joey Votto with approximately 200 less plate appearances could warrant its own thread, but I digress.)

In all seriousness, there is much to commend in Votto's game and he deserves to be drafted high for a number of reasons. Given his love of walks, however, I agree with you that he probably does not deserve to be a top 10 pick, or even a first round pick, next year. I bit on one of my teams this year, but am unlikely to bite again based on where he'll probably be drafted. A better baseball player than fantasy baseball player.

Good luck on your teams down the stretch.

Mike
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:38 am

Right, Mike?
The other night I had insomnia and I was thinking about Votto and the Reds as I was making a pick for a mock draft for next year.
I'll copy and paste part of my reply here (yes, even my replies to e-mails in mock drafts are long)

I have insomnia right now, so was happy to see it was my pick. This will probably be pretty long.....

Tulo, Beltre, Longoria and other smart picks are available. I don't like em. Tulo has not learned how to play SS and keep healthy. I feel Beltre is starting to release 'greatest hits' records and Longoria had almost a full year of health and still didn't impress me. In thinking about who I was gonna take, I thought about how schmart Managers have become. What was wrong with Ruth and Gehrig in the middle of the Yankees lineup? Nowadays, Managers only put lefties together vs. a right handed pitcher. This is supposed to impress us with their schmarts. No Randy Choate is going to come into a game and give my lefties a noogie!

Joe Maddon gets enough credit as a Managerto start a Visa Store.
Have you heard from Kelly Johnson lately? Neither have I.
You see, some players are like my back porch, they wither or get rusty when not used. Carlos Pena turned into Kelly Johnson and Kelly Johnson turned into David Dejesus. But Maddon will be damned if they're hitting together.
Now, I know these three lefties aren't Ruth and Gehrig.
But what about Votto and Bruce?
These are big boys. No Ruth and Gehrig, but darned good hitters. Pitchers fear them. Even lefties.
But Dusty fears Randy Choate.
Randy Freakin' Choate.
And I don't mean Choate personally, but all the left handed specialist that Choate represents.
Ruth and Gehrig never faced Choate. They faced a 95 mph fastball from Lefty Grove in the first inning and a 93 mph fastball from Lefty Grove in the ninth inning.
Bruce hits .249 vs lefties. Votto, .258. Neither of those stats are embarrassing, but for some reason, Managers feel better with Todd Frasier and his .235 average against lefties.
Because Frasier SHOULD hit a lefty. And, you know it's true, Dusty feels a lot smarter with him facing a lefty.
Quit it Dusty! And all quit it all you schmart Managers.
Just put your best hitters in the middle of the lineup. How long did Nick Markakis hit third while Chris Davis missed some at bats hitting fifth?
Davis is a middle of the lineup hitter. Meaning third or fourth.
So were Ruth and Gehrig.
So are Votto and Bruce.
Quit it Dusty. Just quit it.

Note to self: Quit blabbering so much when insomnia strikes!

Part of Joey Votto's problem is Joey Votto. He likes the way he hits....or doesn't hit.
For him, it's a good approach and he's not changing.
The Reds don't mind the approach. On base percentage means a lot in real baseball.
We, the fantasy player are the one's that are truly affected.
Sabrmeticians love Votto's walks. I, as a fantasy player abhor them as lost opportunity.
As many true at bats that Votto gets, he may as well be hitting ninth in a lineup for a fantasy player.
We have that information and it is up to us to decide what to do with Votto.
He won't be on a team of mine next year. Fantasy-wise, for me, he is not a first round player.
Out of 15 drafters, some will disagree with me in taking him there.
What is the opposite of a 'value pick' ?
Whatever the name for it is, I figure that is what that drafter will get.

But, as you can see from the e-mail above, it is not all Votto's fault.
Dusty Baker goes out of his way to be schmart by insisting a right handed batter behind Votto is the schmart thing to do.
It isn't.
The Reds should be putting their BEST hitter behind Votto. For awhile, that was Phillips. Lately it has been Bruce.
Baker is afraid to put Bruce behind Votto because of the Randy Choate syndrome.
A disease that seemingly strikes all Managers.
Managers have been put in a Choate-hold and they don't know how to get out of it.
Instead, Dusty puts Ludwick behind Votto and Votto gets walked five times while Luddy goes 0fer.
Schmart!
Managers have become very stupid in their schmartness. Putting Votto and Bruce together could rack up early runs. Enough to put Choate's ass where opposing Managers want it.
Sitting on the bullpen bench.
His team, out of the game because of the Votto/Bruce destruction on the starting pitcher.

I won't even bring up how Votto would be a far better second hitter in the lineup than third.
Omigod!
Choo, Votto, Bruce.
Dusty would be thrown out of the schmart Managers Association!

Some may say that this year is an anomaly. That Votto will go back to his rbi ways next year.
I think there is a possibility he may get less. And another possibility that Votto sets a walks record.
Here's how.
Let's say the Reds don't sign Choo and can't find a leadoff hitter to replace him over the season....
You already know where I'm going, right?
That's right, Billy Hamilton becomes the lead off hitter.
Hamilton has ants in his pants. He's not staying at first base while Dusty's right handed hitting second hitter bats.
So, how many times will Joey Votto come up next year with a base open?
In this scenario, a lot.
And Joey Votto with a base open will walk 85% of the time.
Don't look it up, I just made that up...but it's probably true.
Votto first round drafters will not think of Hamilton being on second or third base as a detriment. They'll see him as being in 'scoring position'. Pitchers see it as an opportunity to avoid Votto.
It'll fill up the rbi column for whoever hits behind Votto again. This year, it was Brandon Phillips.
Next year, it may be Hunter Pence, we don't know.
Whoever it is, will again have just as much worth or even more worth than the first round player the pitcher avoids.

Votto going 0-0 in five at bats is par for Votto's course. He's the hitter in baseball that gets paid as much not to hit, as hit.
0-0 with an rbi in fantasy is like Brandon Moss being platooned and entering a game to pinch hit and hitting a sac fly.
As owners seeing the stats next day, we'll look at the Moss rbi and shrug.
When seeing the same from Votto, we'll shake our heads.
We want more from a first round pick than a 0-0 with an rbi.
Some would even want an 0-3, just to let us know he's trying.
But Votto's mindset is that a walk is as good as a hit. It doesn't work that way in fantasy.
And with Baker's enabling ways of putting Ludwick behind Votto, those walks will just keep coming.
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by NorCalAtlFan » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:02 am

your hate of Votto rivals that of the Royals. tsk tsk

you need to appreciate a master at work:)

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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:07 am

NorCalAtlFan wrote:your hate of Votto rivals that of the Royals. tsk tsk

you need to appreciate a master at work:)
Are you talking about Dayton Moore or Joey Votto :lol:

PS- Put your money where your mouth is!...... Pick Votto FIRST on Thursday!
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by NorCalAtlFan » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:26 am

i never said i thought votto was best player. i just think the criticism is unwarranted.

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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:31 am

NorCalAtlFan wrote:i never said i thought votto was best player. i just think the criticism is unwarranted.

How is it unwarranted?
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:46 am

Geez, I get e-mails all the time saying 'I hate Joey Votto'.
I DON'T!
Joey Votto is a great hitter and a pleasure to watch.
However, if I had to pick one player that is a better real baseball player than fantasy player, even above judy's, that player would be Joey Votto.
In real baseball, Joey Votto may be one of my top five picks. In fantasy baseball, not even among my top 15.
This isn't a rap on Votto.
It's a rap in how his game does translate from real baseball to fantasy baseball.
I don't believe that is unwarranted criticism.
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by ToddZ » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:48 am

2019 Mastersball Platinum

5 of the past 6 NFBC champions subscribe to Mastersball

over 1300 projections and 500 player profiles
Standings and Roster Tracker perfect for DC and cutline leagues

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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:31 am



Thanks Todd.

One thing not mentioned in the article....

Votto hit .449 in 0-0,1-0, and 0-1 counts. This was not just a small sampling. This was 70 for 156. He also had 10 homers and 30 rbi in these at bats.
What this tells me, is that pitchers are trying to get ahead of Votto. If they know Votto wants to get in a long count, they at least want to be ahead in the count.
Votto does not have to extend his zone at all. I wouldn't want him to do that. He's not playing fantasy baseball.
What would be more productive is to be even more aggressive on early pitches.
Letting a 'get me over fastball' taken for a called strike isn't helping his team, even if resulting in a walk.
Like said, he hit .449 in those at bats. For any count after two pitches were thrown to him, he hit .252
He is lauded for his on base percentage.
At the same time, deep in a count, it is pitcher's advantage when a strike is thrown.
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by Edwards Kings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 6:47 am

Image

"I Image Doughboys"

Signed: Joey Votto
Baseball is a slow, boring, complex, cerebral game that doesn't lend itself to histrionics. You 'take in' a baseball game, something odd to say about a football or basketball game, with the clock running and the bodies flying.
Charles Krauthammer

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Re: Joey Votto

Post by ToddZ » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:44 am

sneak peek at my Platinum profiles

Joey Votto - In 2013, the MLB walk rate with the bases empty was 7 percent. It rose to 11 percent with runners in scoring position (RISP), an increase of 57 percent. Votto's walk rate was 14 percent with no one on and 26 percent with RISP, a whopping 86 percent increase. The league slugged .388 with the bases clear and .396 with RISP, a modest two percent increase. Votto's SLP with bases empty was .531 as compared to .455 with RISP, a significant 14 percent drop so his increased selectivity did not result in driving the ball better. At the end of the day, Votto did his distilled-down job, he did not make an out. But this was detrimental to his fantasy stock and consistent with past seasons. New Reds' skipper Bryan Price wants Votto to alter his approach. I want to see it before believing it. Until then, Votto is a second rounder whose power is capped by a low FB rate and doesn't run as much anymore.
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Jan 03, 2014 9:27 am

Excellent synopsis....
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by Ando » Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:44 pm

I'm all with all your criticism of Mr. Votto from a fantasy standpoint over the past 9 months, Dan. However, if the opportunity is presented to me, I will have a tough time not picking Joey Walks in the 20-25 range.

I guess that makes me the sucker.

Tougher for me due in part that I remember taking Mr. Votto at #28 overall in my inaugural NFBC Main Event draft in Vegas, circa 2010. He lead my rookie squad to a 2nd place finish in that league and will always have a soft spot in my heart. :lol:

Maybe there inlies the answer: Take Joey Walks at #28 or later and you're doin' just fine.
"Luck is the residue of design."

-Branch Rickey

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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:37 pm

Ando wrote:I'm all with all your criticism of Mr. Votto from a fantasy standpoint over the past 9 months, Dan. However, if the opportunity is presented to me, I will have a tough time not picking Joey Walks in the 20-25 range.

I guess that makes me the sucker.

Tougher for me due in part that I remember taking Mr. Votto at #28 overall in my inaugural NFBC Main Event draft in Vegas, circa 2010. He lead my rookie squad to a 2nd place finish in that league and will always have a soft spot in my heart. :lol:

Maybe there inlies the answer: Take Joey Walks at #28 or later and you're doin' just fine.
I love that answer!
So few of us in the NFBC admit to having 'soft spots'. We all do.
I know a guy that takes Sam Fuld because he has won him thousands.
I know another who will take Jim Johnson, because every time Johnson is on his team, he cashes.
I have a soft spot for Dustin Pedroia. If it is a decision between Pedroia and almost any other player, I'll take Pedroia.
It's not that he's been good luck, it's more that I like a conquering little guy with a gung ho attitude.

Long ago I knew a guy who took Randy Johnson in every home league draft. He would take him two rounds before he was supposed to be drafted. Johnson had given him an autograph and been nice the day of the autograph.
That's all it took. :D
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Re: Joey Votto

Post by Money » Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:51 am

http://t.co/X6hellm1Uz

I came across this and wondered how Joey Votto's numbers might stack up?
Joe

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Re: Joey Votto

Post by DOUGHBOYS » Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:10 am

Wow. That is great stuff, Joe.
A similar article about Joey Votto just begs to be written.
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